Stingray Corvette Forum banner

21 - 33 of 33 Posts

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
261 Posts
So...hopefully not a dumb question...what will be needed for the upcoming C7 Z06? Or, do we know yet?
These engines are no different than any other in the past. Like the LSA engines in the CTSV....6.2L with a blower....

Adequate crankcase ventilation will be a MUST on any modified Z06's. Our tank will be available for that as well - as will RX cans and other products designed to handle these issues as they arise.
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
631 Posts
Discussion Starter · #22 ·
Marc,

Per our conversation, I recommended that you either ADD another RX can to your system at 550+ RWHP, or remove the can all together and opt for our breather tank which has been tested on 600+ RWHP vehicles now for some time with great results.

We have no negative feedback regarding the RX cans, and have seen their benefits. At the end of the day, you need to decide (based on your research and our professional opinion) which will work best.

The issue we have seen with single can set ups on big power cars is their "bottleneck" effect at a certain point with respect to the pressure being able to move through the smaller lines, into the can, out of the can, and back into the intake.

Our tanks have much larger lines, and larger volume and are able to move the specific amount of crankcase pressures we typically see on boosted engines. Of course a naturally aspirated engine will have different requirements.

Again, we recommend that you either add a can, one per bank, or a breather tank.

If we can be of any more assistance, let us know!

[email protected]

Erik. Understand a breather tank defeats all evacuation and all of the damaging combustion by-products are left in the crankcase to accumulate and contaminate the oil.....engines cant last long (maybe 50k miles VS several hundred K miles) with out constant, proper evacuation and flushing these from the crankcase as soon as they enter, and a breatherd tank defeats all of this and only vents excess crankcase pressure. If you need more details, go back through the thread...I lay it all out, and I am happy to guide you. The last thing I think you want is like LMR and others are doing, sacrificing the customers engines by doing it incorrectly.

Cheers!
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
631 Posts
Discussion Starter · #23 ·
I have your rx dual valve can and clean side on my z51 I was talking to lashway about a super charger and he wants me to put in his crankcase vent and remove the catch can, do you think your setup I have relieves the preasure during boost he said he has had seals blow out on these motors and thats why they use there venting system, I know the problems deleting the pcv , would 1000 mile oil changes remove contaminated oil quik enough with his set up or am I fine with your setup relieving preasure on seals?

Mark,

It would be impossible for seals to blow out or crankcase pressure to build with the RX system....it is the only system that properly pulls vacuum on the crankcase at all times, boost or non boost. A vented tank will greatly accelerate engine wear unless you change oil every 1000 miles or less. The other thing is a vented tank allows some pressure to always remain in the crankcase as it vents by pressure, you never want pressure as your pistons have to work harder to push against this pressure. Vacuum is desired as this video demonstrates.


I urge you to really consider what happens in your engine on this. And the RX system for the new Z05 is one dual valve oil separating can and the billet cleanside separater.

2 cans will be a waste of $$
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
44 Posts
So i am good with setup i have for the ecs blower? Remember i need to send you the old clean side you replaced just mail it back?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,995 Posts
Quote:
"All good questions. To date, no GM vehicles comes stock with a centrifugal super charger, they are all positive displacement Eaton based units, so they replace the intake manifold with the lower plenum, and all vacuum is supplied at all operating levels by the inlet side circuits built into the unit, so your brake booster and other vacuum dependent systems always work and have vacuum. So, those systems on the CTS-V, ZL1, ZR1, all have a proper system that does evacuate at all times. These GM platforms also have a included clean-side separator between the valve covers and the air bridge (plastic cylinder). So only those FI applications that pressurize the intake manifold have the need for a special system like described. That will be turbo charged and centrifugal (basically a turbo driven by belt and gears VS exhaust gasses) super charged applications."


If I am reading this correctly, GM installs a clean side separator on their factory boosted applications. So, the RX system taps into this, or no? Can you post a simple diagram of how the RX system will integrate with the LT-4?

Guessing a vacuum pump may benefit the LT-1 and 4, but guessing it might void warranties and be an installation nightmare.
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
631 Posts
Discussion Starter · #29 ·
Quote:
"All good questions. To date, no GM vehicles comes stock with a centrifugal super charger, they are all positive displacement Eaton based units, so they replace the intake manifold with the lower plenum, and all vacuum is supplied at all operating levels by the inlet side circuits built into the unit, so your brake booster and other vacuum dependent systems always work and have vacuum. So, those systems on the CTS-V, ZL1, ZR1, all have a proper system that does evacuate at all times. These GM platforms also have a included clean-side separator between the valve covers and the air bridge (plastic cylinder). So only those FI applications that pressurize the intake manifold have the need for a special system like described. That will be turbo charged and centrifugal (basically a turbo driven by belt and gears VS exhaust gasses) super charged applications."


If I am reading this correctly, GM installs a clean side separator on their factory boosted applications. So, the RX system taps into this, or no? Can you post a simple diagram of how the RX system will integrate with the LT-4?

Guessing a vacuum pump may benefit the LT-1 and 4, but guessing it might void warranties and be an installation nightmare.
Yes they have a plastic canister that mounts on the inside radius of the coupler on the throttle body, and then splits to both valve covers from there. It is only an empty plastic canister but does a pretty decent job. They just dont give instructions on caring for it. It does need to be emptied every 20k or so miles. Remove it and drain. We do not tap into it when stock, we go w/out the additional cleanside unit. If built, we reconfigure and use the RX.

Belt driven vac pump is the best solution period.....but they wont last more than 5k miles or so on the street before the bearings/vanes/shaft need rebuilt/replaced. All of our race engines have belt driven pumps:



Would the tube in front if the throttle body go in the same spot?
No, it goes into the coupler at the inlet to the centrifugal SC head unit. Because the tube to the TB is pressurized with boost. And the cleanside tube goes to the end or base of the cone air filter. Thats the only difference.

Here is the link to ECS install:
http://www.stingrayforums.com/forum...-oil-ingestion-issues-direct-injection-7.html
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
261 Posts
Tracy,

I understand how these systems work. I never said the catch cans don't serve a purpose. I do however know that at a certain power level, the catch cans become ineffective at evacuating ALL of the pressure created as a result of normal engine operation.

I agree that a vacuum system would be best in most any high performance engine, but let's face it, folks on this forum are looking for an economical way to filter the air rentering their intake, OR, to evacuate CC pressure all together.

I recommend to all of my customers that if they choose to run our breather tanks, to also change their oil more frequently. What you aren't reminding folks of is those harmful contaminants are going to engine the engine oil in any case. Do an oil analysis on any engine and it's oil after say a 3000 mile interval. You will undoubtedly find contamination...and this is on a stock engine.

Anyone who modifies their engine needs to be aware that certain things change. Oil change intervals is one of them.

I have, and will continue to build breather systems for a variety of performance engines. With proper care, they work extremely well. If someone wants to run a catch can, that is perfectly fine with me.

Erik
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
631 Posts
Discussion Starter · #31 ·
Tracy,

I understand how these systems work. I never said the catch cans don't serve a purpose. I do however know that at a certain power level, the catch cans become ineffective at evacuating ALL of the pressure created as a result of normal engine operation.

I agree that a vacuum system would be best in most any high performance engine, but let's face it, folks on this forum are looking for an economical way to filter the air rentering their intake, OR, to evacuate CC pressure all together.

I recommend to all of my customers that if they choose to run our breather tanks, to also change their oil more frequently. What you aren't reminding folks of is those harmful contaminants are going to engine the engine oil in any case. Do an oil analysis on any engine and it's oil after say a 3000 mile interval. You will undoubtedly find contamination...and this is on a stock engine.

Anyone who modifies their engine needs to be aware that certain things change. Oil change intervals is one of them.

I have, and will continue to build breather systems for a variety of performance engines. With proper care, they work extremely well. If someone wants to run a catch can, that is perfectly fine with me.

Erik
Can you explain how the crankcase is evacuated then with a breather tank? And the RX monster system evacuates in applications to over 1000 RWHP when installed correctly. Never should be a situation that the engine life is sacrificed by defeating this, and changing oil every few hundred miles (that would be required if not evacuating constantly to remove the contaminates that accumulate in the oil.....there is not a single application in motorsports from economy cars to our alcohol dragsters that run w/out evacuation. This style has just recently been implemented the past few years by some shops not understanding proper crankcase evacuation). A simple BlackStone oil analysis will prove this to any on doubt. The compounds that enter the crankcase constantly via blow-by are damaging in even small amounts much less the accumulations the oil analysis show. And with forced induction, blow by is 2-3 times the amount as NA applications so it is even more critical.

Unless these compounds are immediately flushed and evacuated while still in suspension, they quickly settle and mix with the engine oil. Once that occurs, only a small amount of water and unburnt fuel can "flash off" again, but if not evacuated they will again settle back into the oil. Releasing pressure is just that. There is no flushing or evacuation of the damaging compounds, and they must be removed.

A breather tank is similar to this. Your crankcase is basically a "room" with a steady vent in the middle with smoke entering (the contaminates). If you use a breather only tank, then it is like opening one window. Pressure from the vent spewing smoke will exit that window....but the room remains full of the smoke. Open a window on the opposite end of the room with a fan pulling out, and the room clears in no time flat and continues. Clean air enters the one window and is pulled out the opposite. It is that simple.

All crankcase PCV systems have a clean, or fresh side that filtered air is drawn in to flush the contaminates out the opposite dirty, or foul side so these damaging compound laden vapors are immediately pulled out and flushed before they can settle and mix with the oil and begin causing damage.

This basic tech training video explains it so anyone can understand:


So, the majority of "catchcan" systems will not as you state correctly, that is why the RX Monster system for big boost, and the standard dual valve for medium boosted engines accomplishes this by using the intake manifold for vacuum to evacuate while in non-boost operation just as the OEM systems, and when boost is detected, the primary valve to the IM closes, and the secondary valve to the turbo/SC inlet opens and uses that available vacuum/suction to continue uninterrupted evacuation at all levels of operation. No boost pressure can enter the crankcase, and no matter what operating mode, boost or non-boost, the pressure is not only dealt with, the crankcase is constantly evacuated as needed. Using a breatherd tank comes from the collection end of a belt driven vacuum pump where it traps the compounds evacuated from the crankcase. Defeating the evacuation function on any engine results in greatly increased wear and premature failure plain and simple. There is no way to just combine the clean and dirty sides together and run them to a can/tank with a breather on it.....no where in professional motorsports is that accepted much less the street driving applications were seeing the past few years as the street is driving hours and hours vs a short stint on the track.

Remember, this comes from over 40 years in the racing industry with years of Divisional, National, and World Championships in multiple classes both NHRA & IHRA. The motors we use cost far to much (and every other competitor does the same....go to a actual sanctioned event to see, not a test & tune where you see anything). You can use header collector evac systems if running no exhaust as a way to accomplish this low cost, but for the street, the only solutions are a system like I describe above (Elite Engineering has one that works as well) or a true vacuum pump are the only choices to avoid sacrificing the engine over time period.
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
631 Posts
Discussion Starter · #32 ·
Here is a blackstone analysis of a twin turbo application at 1000 miles of what the system evacuated that would be left in the oil with a vented tank/can:








The abrasive carbon and soot particles are mainly drawn through the can and exit out the exhaust and they also will remain in the crankcase oil if just venting. This should leave no doubt in anyones mind how critical it is to remove this and NOT let it accumulate and contaminate the engine oil. And this is at only 1000 miles. To avoid damage you would need to change oil every 100 or so miles, and that is expensive. And with allowing pressure to build to the point of venting instead of pulling vacuum and evacuating causes the pistons to work harder as they are working against the pressure building vs evacuating with suction.
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
631 Posts
Discussion Starter · #33 ·
Here is a diagram for all with a centri type blower. If turbo, the same works just tap into the inlet side of the turbo for in boost evac suction:

 
21 - 33 of 33 Posts
Top